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reekoiler #1 Posted 10 December 2018 - 01:06 PM

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stupid woman

Chairman_merpug #2 Posted 10 December 2018 - 06:38 PM

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View Postreekoiler, on 10 December 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

stupid woman

Yeah, that RHI thing should have cooked her goose, but she's still hanging on. Even had Boris speaking at the conference...


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VonPottypoop #3 Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:55 PM

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Democracy stops the second you drop your X in the ballot box. These people are there to represent their constituents and to honour especially a vote like Brexit which ever way it went. The whole of Parliament has been un-democratic and instead of working together for the best possible outcome they have all played it to get their own political gains. Question is now, is there any point in voting for anything now if this is how parliament behaves with the most important decision since the Second World War and the Chamberlain debacle. Non of them are worth a toss in my eyes. They all are a self centred bunch of scheming twats that don’t deserve to have a job and represent the people of this fine nation.

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Debbie_Does_Dallas #4 Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:58 PM

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Resign?.... who the hell is out there to do the job?    They're all totally useless....and God help us if ever Corbyn got in!

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Chairman_merpug #5 Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:14 PM

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View PostVonPottypoop, on 10 December 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

Democracy stops the second you drop your X in the ballot box. These people are there to represent their constituents and to honour especially a vote like Brexit which ever way it went. The whole of Parliament has been un-democratic and instead of working together for the best possible outcome they have all played it to get their own political gains. Question is now, is there any point in voting for anything now if this is how parliament behaves with the most important decision since the Second World War and the Chamberlain debacle. Non of them are worth a toss in my eyes. They all are a self centred bunch of scheming twats that don’t deserve to have a job and represent the people of this fine nation.

You mean England, don't you. My own nation is being represented by a party that isn't representative of the majority decision by its electorate over Brexit, which has been propping up the current government for its own ends and which is currently embroiled in a financial scandal of massive proportions whilst crying about being treated the same as the rest of the kingdom. Obviously, this treatment is issue--specific, not applicable to the laws that differ already. 


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RA1D_SCHNITZEL_ #6 Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:50 PM

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Its what happens when idiots make stupid promises and are not willing to accept the consequences, because they suck. The politicians that should resign are those that made huge claims on how big the bargaining power of the island is. Blatant lies only to improve their political standing, including „her“ and the English Trump copy.

I always wonder how most European democracies use the tool of the referendum only for the most crucial votes. It should be the other way round. A people should first mature and get used to the power a direct voting ballot has by voting on minor issues, before being allowed to decide on issues that are vital for the socioeconomic future of the country.


 

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Tijgerhaai_XIV #7 Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:55 PM

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Less than 50% of the British population voted for Brexit, and a tiny majority of those that did vote. Brexit is not democratic.

I'm not resident so no one asked me, but leaving the EU is the stupidest thing I've ever come across. And I've read nearly all Canny's posts.

 


RA1D_SCHNITZEL_ #8 Posted 11 December 2018 - 12:15 AM

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View PostTijgerhaai_XIV, on 10 December 2018 - 11:55 PM, said:

Less than 50% of the British population voted for Brexit, and a tiny majority of those that did vote. Brexit is not democratic.

I'm not resident so no one asked me, but leaving the EU is the stupidest thing I've ever come across. And I've read nearly all Canny's posts.

 

I agree with your second paragraph but not on your first. A democracy can set certain limits to how many % have to vote for something but if there is none or this limit is surpassed than everyone that doesnt vote is completely irrelevant. They had the chance to vote, if they dont then they can and should be ignored. Brexit - as dumb as it is - is democratic. However, regarding the question of WHAT KIND of Brexit there will be, percentages do matter. Pushing a Hard Brexit with only just 50% of votes is ridiculous. If they had 70+ it would be a different story.

 

Imho they should simply vote in parliament on Mays plan and then do a referendum on the outcome. If it doesnt pass then no Brexit, if it does live with it. Almost none of the Brexit fans were talking of hard Brexit before the referendum. Everybody kept saying how great a deal the EU would give them. 


 

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Mjr_Eazy #9 Posted 11 December 2018 - 02:37 AM

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I voted leave, if I could have voted for the negotiating team I’d have had Daniel Levy, Alan Sugar and Mike Ashley, we’d have got a proper deal then :)

 

Personally, I don’t believe a word any politician says, the fact both sides lied pre the referendum shouldn’t suprise anyone...

It’s the old truism, how can you tell when a politician is lying?  Their lips are moving!  Boom boom.

 

As it stands though I would rather stay in the EU than bend over and take the deal May has been given by the EU.


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RA1D_SCHNITZEL_ #10 Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:23 AM

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View PostMjr_Eazy, on 11 December 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

I voted leave, if I could have voted for the negotiating team I’d have had Daniel Levy, Alan Sugar and Mike Ashley, we’d have got a proper deal then :)

 

Personally, I don’t believe a word any politician says, the fact both sides lied pre the referendum shouldn’t suprise anyone...

It’s the old truism, how can you tell when a politician is lying?  Their lips are moving!  Boom boom.

 

As it stands though I would rather stay in the EU than bend over and take the deal May has been given by the EU.

 

But thats the point. Its madness to assume that the EU would have allowed any deal that is substantially better than what May has done. It would have been madness for the EU to do so. May didnt bend over, she - and I say this even though I really dont like that person - just did what is possible. I see that as a Non-EU-citizen: if you are not willing to join its either „bending over“ or fcking up yourself really, really hard. And this is if you have never joined; leaving is naturally going to be even worse. While I highly dislike the institutional makeup of the EU and its lack of vision I think it is completely foolish to think you can not be part of it, have all the benefits of it and not having to „bend over“ in some aspects. I always thought our Swiss EU debate was flawed but what you guys are pulling off is so incredibly detached from reality and influenced by a completely overblown national self-esteem that I dont know whether to laugh or worry.

 

Ah, and ask the Americans on how great a deals you get when putting entertainers and entrepreneurs into politics. :teethhappy:


 

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VonPottypoop #11 Posted 11 December 2018 - 07:56 AM

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Even the French and Italians want out, personally I liked the idea of the EEC but the EU super state was getting out of hand, it was starting to look all one way. Migration levels should have been equal but it wasn't and the UK was breaking under the strain of a total lack of housing and facilities for them numbers. 

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Chairman_merpug #12 Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:11 AM

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View PostVonPottypoop, on 11 December 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

Even the French and Italians want out, personally I liked the idea of the EEC but the EU super state was getting out of hand, it was starting to look all one way. Migration levels should have been equal but it wasn't and the UK was breaking under the strain of a total lack of housing and facilities for them numbers. 

If the people of Britain could be arsed to do the dirty, low paid jobs the country depends on, there wouldn't be much work for the migrants to do and they'd be less likely to come. As it stands, agriculture and care for the elderly and less able are about to be totally screwed. Agriculture doubly, as Gove hasn't a clue. 


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Mjr_Eazy #13 Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:30 AM

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View PostRA1D_SCHNITZEL_, on 11 December 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

 

But thats the point. Its madness to assume that the EU would have allowed any deal that is substantially better than what May has done. It would have been madness for the EU to do so. May didnt bend over, she - and I say this even though I really dont like that person - just did what is possible. I see that as a Non-EU-citizen: if you are not willing to join its either „bending over“ or fcking up yourself really, really hard. And this is if you have never joined; leaving is naturally going to be even worse. While I highly dislike the institutional makeup of the EU and its lack of vision I think it is completely foolish to think you can not be part of it, have all the benefits of it and not having to „bend over“ in some aspects. I always thought our Swiss EU debate was flawed but what you guys are pulling off is so incredibly detached from reality and influenced by a completely overblown national self-esteem that I dont know whether to laugh or worry.

 

Ah, and ask the Americans on how great a deals you get when putting entertainers and entrepreneurs into politics. :teethhappy:

 

Yeah, name calling already, I’m a fool cos I voted leave, blah blah blah

No deal is better than paying 39 billion to be a rule taker and not being able to leave without the EU’s say so, the woman is pathetic, end of.

 

Oh, ask the 100’s of thousands who now have a job what they think of having The Donald as President...


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Mjr_Eazy #14 Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:35 AM

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View PostChairman_merpug, on 11 December 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

If the people of Britain could be arsed to do the dirty, low paid jobs the country depends on, there wouldn't be much work for the migrants to do and they'd be less likely to come. As it stands, agriculture and care for the elderly and less able are about to be totally screwed. Agriculture doubly, as Gove hasn't a clue. 

 

Agriculture screwed, why?  Most of the jobs there are seasonal, the workers come, they go, why on earth would we stop that, we’d still allow that type of seasonal worker in from the EU, equally why would these seasonal workers then not come from Commonwealth

countries?

I agree with you about Gove though, he’s a slug and slugs are pests and should be kept away from growing things.


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Debbie_Does_Dallas #15 Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:53 AM

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View PostRA1D_SCHNITZEL_, on 11 December 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

 

But thats the point. Its madness to assume that the EU would have allowed any deal that is substantially better than what May has done. It would have been madness for the EU to do so. May didnt bend over, she - and I say this even though I really dont like that person - just did what is possible. I see that as a Non-EU-citizen: if you are not willing to join its either „bending over“ or fcking up yourself really, really hard. And this is if you have never joined; leaving is naturally going to be even worse. While I highly dislike the institutional makeup of the EU and its lack of vision I think it is completely foolish to think you can not be part of it, have all the benefits of it and not having to „bend over“ in some aspects. I always thought our Swiss EU debate was flawed but what you guys are pulling off is so incredibly detached from reality and influenced by a completely overblown national self-esteem that I dont know whether to laugh or worry.

 

Ah, and ask the Americans on how great a deals you get when putting entertainers and entrepreneurs into politics. :teethhappy:

 

Overblown national self esteem??  Ok pacifist nation.....lets see which country these eu bureaucrats come running to when the next conflict kicks off in this moronic world. It won't be you, and it won't be any of these tag along nations in the eurozone that only joined to bleed and leech off the stronger countries in the first place. The truth my friend is it will be the British who are the first port of call. 

So like it or not, we still carry some major clout, not just in Europe but across the globe. And therein lies the real issue for mainland Europe, a deepseated hatred of the British because of its history and tradition, and they're now queuing up to try to land a sly punch on us in any way they can.


Edited by harrier_77, 11 December 2018 - 09:59 AM.

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Mjr_Eazy #16 Posted 11 December 2018 - 11:54 AM

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The concept of a European Common Market is a great one and what we voted to join in the 1st place, well me Da did anyways but it's the increasing attempts to create a Federal States of Europe by the Eurocrats that does my head in, personally I don't have a problem with Free movement of people as part of a Common Market but it's the Euro parliament and the associated un-elected bureaucrats that go with the current EU set-up I'm against, the CAP (or whatever they call it these days) and the Fishing rights fiasco as well as the EU Courts.  No problem if there's an EU court as the highest authority for appealing to for commercial stuff as part of the Common Market but the rest of the machinery should get dismantled.  

 

Oh and as for an EU army, what are they smoking?  I guess it will be cheap to run, it just needs 2 soldiers, 1 to carry the white flag and 1 officer to hand over his sword!


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RA1D_SCHNITZEL_ #17 Posted 11 December 2018 - 07:48 PM

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View PostMjr_Eazy, on 11 December 2018 - 09:30 AM, said:

 

Yeah, name calling already, I’m a fool cos I voted leave, blah blah blah

No deal is better than paying 39 billion to be a rule taker and not being able to leave without the EU’s say so, the woman is pathetic, end of.

 

Oh, ask the 100’s of thousands who now have a job what they think of having The Donald as President...

 

Name calling? The only one saying that leaving was stupid was Tijger. You need to accept not everyone disagreeing with you is insulting you. 

I actually don't think people voting to leave were per se stupid. I would not have voted so but I see some of the points. What I do think is absolutely stupid are leave-voters who thought that the promises of the Brexit-proponants were true that the UK could just leave the EU, keep all the benefits and just get rid of the annoying things. This is absurd but people talking about the "deal" are acting as if anything significantly better was possible at all. It wasn't. Period.

Again: I'm living in a country that is not part of the EU and where the relationship to the EU has been the major political talking-point for the last 26 years. You just don't get if you don't give. Not being in the EU cost us dearly in the 1990s, amongst others our National Airline (Swissair). Making a deal and treaties that allowed for a competitive access to the EU market meant we had to do major concessions: accepting many EU regulations (that we can't influence), free movement of people etc., stuff many people didn't like. But it was necessary. It's rational but sometimes painful. And it was the way to go for the UK. Plus it was clear it would be even more painful, because the EU would want to deterr other countries from leaving (and not because of harriers absurd notion of some grudge of the EU against the British, this is truly Canny-style). It's either this, remaining or a hard Brexit. There is simply no other way and this was clear way before the referendum. 

I btw. really agree the EU needs massive reform. The parliament should be made up from European parties, not national parties and the voting process should be standardised. Plus the EU courts basis should not be the treaty of Rome but a stripped down constitutional base, so the EU parliament actually gets some proper legislative power. The UK would've been a great rational voice in this process (same as Switzerland) but now both chose to not be part of it but having to accept the consequences if they want to keep market access. Sucks but sometimes national sentiments are just as important as real politics. I really hope the British get their act together and - whether they accept Mays deal or do another referendum - just refrain from the desaster that a hard Brexit would be. As I've mentioned earlier I lived in the UK and have great sympathy for its people and I don't want such a catastrophe to befall them, especially for all the wrong reasons.

 

Anyway, I underestimated the emotional this subject has for British forumers. Hell, how can someone state the might of UKs army in a discussion about economic and social subjects? The UK is not leaving NATO, it's leaving the EU. I will not even answer to national clichees, it's not worthy of a serious discussion. 

 

Ah and btw. on the Orange American guy:

 

Job creation since 2008:

 

Don't see any major influence while the federal deficit is skyrocketing. But I'm sure many shareholders of the big corporations really like the Donald, his tax reform made them even richer and it will be others that will have to pay for it.


 

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Debbie_Does_Dallas #18 Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:06 PM

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View PostRA1D_SCHNITZEL_, on 11 December 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

 

Name calling? The only one saying that leaving was stupid was Tijger. You need to accept not everyone disagreeing with you is insulting you. 

I actually don't think people voting to leave were per se stupid. I would not have voted so but I see some of the points. What I do think is absolutely stupid are leave-voters who thought that the promises of the Brexit-proponants were true that the UK could just leave the EU, keep all the benefits and just get rid of the annoying things. This is absurd but people talking about the "deal" are acting as if anything significantly better was possible at all. It wasn't. Period.

Again: I'm living in a country that is not part of the EU and where the relationship to the EU has been the major political talking-point for the last 26 years. You just don't get if you don't give. Not being in the EU cost us dearly in the 1990s, amongst others our National Airline (Swissair). Making a deal and treaties that allowed for a competitive access to the EU market meant we had to do major concessions: accepting many EU regulations (that we can't influence), free movement of people etc., stuff many people didn't like. But it was necessary. It's rational but sometimes painful. And it was the way to go for the UK. Plus it was clear it would be even more painful, because the EU would want to deterr other countries from leaving (and not because of harriers absurd notion of some grudge of the EU against the British, this is truly Canny-style). It's either this, remaining or a hard Brexit. There is simply no other way and this was clear way before the referendum. 

I btw. really agree the EU needs massive reform. The parliament should be made up from European parties, not national parties and the voting process should be standardised. Plus the EU courts basis should not be the treaty of Rome but a stripped down constitutional base, so the EU parliament actually gets some proper legislative power. The UK would've been a great rational voice in this process (same as Switzerland) but now both chose to not be part of it but having to accept the consequences if they want to keep market access. Sucks but sometimes national sentiments are just as important as real politics. I really hope the British get their act together and - whether they accept Mays deal or do another referendum - just refrain from the desaster that a hard Brexit would be. As I've mentioned earlier I lived in the UK and have great sympathy for its people and I don't want such a catastrophe to befall them, especially for all the wrong reasons.

 

Anyway, I underestimated the emotional this subject has for British forumers. Hell, how can someone state the might of UKs army in a discussion about economic and social subjects? The UK is not leaving NATO, it's leaving the EU. I will not even answer to national clichees, it's not worthy of a serious discussion. 

 

Ah and btw. on the Orange American guy:

 

Job creation since 2008:

 

Don't see any major influence while the federal deficit is skyrocketing. But I'm sure many shareholders of the big corporations really like the Donald, his tax reform made them even richer and it will be others that will have to pay for it.

 

what you underestimated was the level of national pride we have in this country...and it's served us well, and continues to do so. The subject of armed forces is a viable topic within this thread, it's not just about economic and social activity, it is about the bigger picture of how Europe views and treats the UK. When it suits them on a political front the eu likes to throw it's weight around, telling us how mighty they are and we would do well to remember that.....but when something larger appears on the horizon, something they have no stomach for, they come running to the UK like scared children. 

You mention we are (uk) still in NATO....yep, strangely the eu had no interest in excluding us from that....and you say we are trying to pick and choose the choice morsels?.

The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy.

 


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Chairman_merpug #19 Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:52 AM

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View Postharrier_77, on 11 December 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

 

what you underestimated was the level of national pride we have in this country...and it's served us well, and continues to do so. The subject of armed forces is a viable topic within this thread, it's not just about economic and social activity, it is about the bigger picture of how Europe views and treats the UK. When it suits them on a political front the eu likes to throw it's weight around, telling us how mighty they are and we would do well to remember that.....but when something larger appears on the horizon, something they have no stomach for, they come running to the UK like scared children. 

You mention we are (uk) still in NATO....yep, strangely the eu had no interest in excluding us from that....and you say we are trying to pick and choose the choice morsels?.

The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy.

 

Sadly, the armed forces of the UK are in a bit of a mess. The Army is losing recruits because of the insane decision to outsource recruitment to Crapita. The Navy has just sunk all its eggs into the basket of two massive diesel carriers, which can't operate independently because of the need for fuel and which are further crippled by the absence of an affordable plane to fly off them. The cost of these means a lot of critical support vessels are being pensioned off, reducing the effectiveness of rapid strike forces.

If Argentina decided to invade the Falklands today, the UK would be unable to do anything about it.


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RA1D_SCHNITZEL_ #20 Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:25 AM

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View Postharrier_77, on 11 December 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

 

what you underestimated was the level of national pride we have in this country...and it's served us well, and continues to do so. The subject of armed forces is a viable topic within this thread, it's not just about economic and social activity, it is about the bigger picture of how Europe views and treats the UK. When it suits them on a political front the eu likes to throw it's weight around, telling us how mighty they are and we would do well to remember that.....but when something larger appears on the horizon, something they have no stomach for, they come running to the UK like scared children. 

You mention we are (uk) still in NATO....yep, strangely the eu had no interest in excluding us from that....and you say we are trying to pick and choose the choice morsels?.

The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy.

 

 

Wait, why on earth should the EU (or, what you mean: Germany and France) want to kick out UK from NATO? They didn't want to kick out the UK from the EU in the first place, it was the UK that decided to leave. I have great respect for the UKs armed forces but we all know what country it is the EU would be running to in case of an armed conflict. It's also United but not a Kingdom. And the UK would be running to the very same country as well. But again, this is completely off-topic.

 

I think the sense of national pride is a great thing when used in a positive way. Every country (well, apart of Germany :trollface: ;) has it, it's by no way exclusive to the UK. It can also be highly destructive when not and we are seeing this right now in the Brexit debate. Well, everyone outside of the UK does. Your national pride made you reelect a deeply unpopular prime minister only because she decided to fight for some hardly populated islands in the south Atlantic and the consequences of her politics are the main reason for the sorry state of many UK citizens these days. But it's so much easier to blame Bruxelles. Btw. someone mentioned the housing crisis: how about you complain about huge apartments being built for super-wealthy Russians and Arabs that will be empty for 50 weeks a year before you address some Polish worker living in a tiny room in a flatshare in Hackney (who btw. might have migrated to the UK because they need workers to build the Luxury towers)

 

And one last time: The EU doesn't treat you badly because they for some reason hate the UK. The EU is not only France, it's 27 countries. They simply can't give you better conditions than they did because everything else would tear the Union apart. All this BS about the EU wanting some kind of vendetta against the Brits is just propaganda.


Edited by RA1D_SCHNITZEL_, 12 December 2018 - 09:29 AM.

 

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