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Depleted Uranium shells - is the Chieftain Mk. 6 the only one firing these?


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SMERSH_T #1 Posted 12 January 2019 - 04:24 PM

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119mm APCR APDS L-15 A4 DU is the prammo for the Mk. 6. DU for Depletet Uranium. Still worse pen than the 120mm prammo for the FV215b.

 

Are there more tanks with DU in game?


 


jonty_2014 #2 Posted 12 January 2019 - 05:41 PM

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No.


There wasn’t much of it about 1919-1946.

 


SMERSH_T #3 Posted 12 January 2019 - 05:57 PM

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View Postjonty_2014, on 12 January 2019 - 06:41 PM, said:

No.


There wasn’t much of it about 1919-1946.

 

The KpfPZ. 70 wasn't exactly first half of the last century ;)

 


Denii #4 Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:28 PM

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View PostSMERSH_T, on 12 January 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

119mm APCR APDS L-15 A4 DU is the prammo for the Mk. 6. DU for Depletet Uranium. Still worse pen than the 120mm prammo for the FV215b.

 

Are there more tanks with DU in game?

 

You may as well have a tank fire tactical nukes out of their gun barrels. If the devs set the penetration value at 1mm and avg dmg at 10hp they are good for nothing. This is an arcade game with pre, during and after WW2 armored vehicles. Like many other things, penetration and dmg is a balancing factor.

 


Titus_Scato #5 Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:24 PM

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View PostSMERSH_T, on 12 January 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

119mm APCR APDS L-15 A4 DU is the prammo for the Mk. 6. DU for Depletet Uranium. Still worse pen than the 120mm prammo for the FV215b.

 

Are there more tanks with DU in game?

 

WG mistake.  The 1970's Chieftain Mk.6 (which was not a new build, but a late 1960's Mk.2 rebuilt to Mk.5 standard) never had L26 "Jericho" DU (depleted uranium) ammunition.  It had L15 Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot-Tracer (APDS-T), L31 High Explosive Squash Head (HESH), and L34 (Smoke).

 

That depleted uranium ammo was developed in the late 1980's, and issued for the first time in the 1991 Gulf War - by which time the Mk.6 Chieftain was over 20 years old and out of front line service in the British Army.



SMERSH_T #6 Posted 13 January 2019 - 03:13 AM

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I knew about the early M1 Abrams with 105 mm gun having DU shells, but then they decided to standardize the Abrams on the Leo II 120 mm APFSDS gun.

Edited by SMERSH_T, 13 January 2019 - 03:17 AM.

 


Peter_Moosey #7 Posted 13 January 2019 - 02:12 PM

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I want the Potatoe shells back in Blitz :great::justwait:

Colmain595 #8 Posted 13 January 2019 - 07:41 PM

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View PostTitus_Scato, on 12 January 2019 - 10:24 PM, said:

 

WG mistake.  The 1970's Chieftain Mk.6 (which was not a new build, but a late 1960's Mk.2 rebuilt to Mk.5 standard) never had L26 "Jericho" DU (depleted uranium) ammunition.  It had L15 Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot-Tracer (APDS-T), L31 High Explosive Squash Head (HESH), and L34 (Smoke).

 

That depleted uranium ammo was developed in the late 1980's, and issued for the first time in the 1991 Gulf War - by which time the Mk.6 Chieftain was over 20 years old and out of front line service in the British Army.

 

The last two Regiments to have Chieftain were mine (you can guess) stationed in Tidworth 1989 and the RAC Trg Regt at Cambrai Bks, Catterick, QRIH.

 

On OP GRANBY we fired a lot of DU rounds onto live targets.  A long time ago now, I was 19.  Never bare your enemy ill will in the form of malicel because that could be you another day.  Lest we forget.


Edited by Colmain595, 13 January 2019 - 07:41 PM.


Titus_Scato #9 Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:11 PM

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View PostColmain595, on 13 January 2019 - 07:41 PM, said:

 

The last two Regiments to have Chieftain were mine (you can guess) stationed in Tidworth 1989 and the RAC Trg Regt at Cambrai Bks, Catterick, QRIH.

 

On OP GRANBY we fired a lot of DU rounds onto live targets.  A long time ago now, I was 19.  Never bare your enemy ill will in the form of malicel because that could be you another day.  Lest we forget.

 

What mark of Chieftain did your regiment have in 1990?  Mk 11’s with Stillbrew additional armour and TOGS laser rangefinder?

 

Also, was there any kind of pressure on you to ‘use up’ the DU rounds during GRANBY?  Just curious, I’m wondering if DU was already somewhat controversial even before Desert Storm.

 

I get that in action, the focus is on preserving the lives of your own troop by knocking out the enemy ASAP, but I’ve read that DU was used against ancient T-54/55’s, and even motor transport, was that not a bit of ‘overkill’?  Surely APDS and HESH would have been sufficient against such targets?  I imagine that your thermal imaging night sight was good enough to tell the difference between a T-72 and a T-55, or am I mistaken?



Denii #10 Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:45 PM

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There is no such thing as overkill in a WAR.

 


Titus_Scato #11 Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:06 PM

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View PostDenii, on 13 January 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

There is no such thing as overkill in a WAR.

 

True, but the British Army isn’t the American Army, with unlimited supplies of the best ammo readily available and only a radio call away (i.e. shoot as much ammo as you want).

 

For the British, logistics can be a nightmare, for the Americans, logistics is a wet dream.


Edited by Titus_Scato, 13 January 2019 - 09:07 PM.


Colmain595 #12 Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:35 PM

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View PostTitus_Scato, on 13 January 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

 

What mark of Chieftain did your regiment have in 1990?  Mk 11’s with Stillbrew additional armour and TOGS laser rangefinder?

 

Also, was there any kind of pressure on you to ‘use up’ the DU rounds during GRANBY?  Just curious, I’m wondering if DU was already somewhat controversial even before Desert Storm.

 

I get that in action, the focus is on preserving the lives of your own troop by knocking out the enemy ASAP, but I’ve read that DU was used against ancient T-54/55’s, and even motor transport, was that not a bit of ‘overkill’?  Surely APDS and HESH would have been sufficient against such targets?  I imagine that your thermal imaging night sight was good enough to tell the difference between a T-72 and a T-55, or am I mistaken?

 

Yes, we had Mk11s with still brew and TOGS.  BATUS (British Army Training Unit Suffiled - in Canada) also had them until the last.  

 

TOGS was awesome.  The Iraqis didn't have the kit we did and couldn't engage us at distance.  We were taking out targets in depth whilst supporting the infantry onto the objective.  OI was a driver though.  We engaged everything we came into contact with, the thing was just to smash them as fast as we could.  Extreme rapid violence and keep moving.  Bad things happen but that happens when you're on the losing side, in the wrong place at the wrong time, we wanted to make sure we got to go home.  No such thing as overkill, just takeout the target and get it done.  I sometimes feel a wee bit bad about it now but it was long ago and i served until 2013.  I feel sorry for them now and the fact that their relatives will never know what happened to them or where they rest troubles me.  I also remember them on Remembrance Day.  I don't think about it too often though, it happened.  

 

The TOGS can tell the difference but that's down to the Gnr or Comd and a few other variables.  Target recognition training helps out on that.  I was just sweating my tits off in my cab bricking it looking at what was happening in a surreal kind of way.

 

We got replenned and bombed up.  After it all we didn't have many rounds left if I remember.  A lot of crapgot buried, lost and just fired off in one way or the other.  We had a lot of mods done to our wagons, charge bins etc.   Truth is there isn't much point in telling people about it because they won't understand most of it and most likely not believe it anyway from my experience.

 

Lest we forget.

 

Huzzah!

 

 



Cookiebile #13 Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:53 PM

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M1 Abrams still use a sabot round with a core out of uranium.


 


SMERSH_T #14 Posted 13 January 2019 - 11:10 PM

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View PostCookiebile, on 13 January 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

M1 Abrams still use a sabot round with a core out of uranium.

 

I wasn't aware the M829 round was DU. The German rounds for the 120mm gun are made of Tungsten carbide.

 


Cookiebile #15 Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:59 AM

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120 mm is a standard caliber. So there is no limtitions per se to use different ammunition. And M829 comes in diffrent versions. M829E4 is the one, just checked.

Edited by Cookiebile, 14 January 2019 - 09:23 AM.


 


Titus_Scato #16 Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:46 PM

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View PostColmain595, on 13 January 2019 - 09:35 PM, said:

 

Yes, we had Mk11s with still brew and TOGS.  BATUS (British Army Training Unit Suffiled - in Canada) also had them until the last.  

 

TOGS was awesome.  The Iraqis didn't have the kit we did and couldn't engage us at distance.  We were taking out targets in depth whilst supporting the infantry onto the objective.  OI was a driver though.  We engaged everything we came into contact with, the thing was just to smash them as fast as we could.  Extreme rapid violence and keep moving.  Bad things happen but that happens when you're on the losing side, in the wrong place at the wrong time, we wanted to make sure we got to go home.  No such thing as overkill, just takeout the target and get it done.  I sometimes feel a wee bit bad about it now but it was long ago and i served until 2013.  I feel sorry for them now and the fact that their relatives will never know what happened to them or where they rest troubles me.  I also remember them on Remembrance Day.  I don't think about it too often though, it happened.  

 

The TOGS can tell the difference but that's down to the Gnr or Comd and a few other variables.  Target recognition training helps out on that.  I was just sweating my tits off in my cab bricking it looking at what was happening in a surreal kind of way.

 

We got replenned and bombed up.  After it all we didn't have many rounds left if I remember.  A lot of crapgot buried, lost and just fired off in one way or the other.  We had a lot of mods done to our wagons, charge bins etc.   Truth is there isn't much point in telling people about it because they won't understand most of it and most likely not believe it anyway from my experience.

 

Lest we forget.

 

Huzzah!

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing!  I very much appreciate it.

 

You've probably read this Desert Storm blog by Capt. Tim Purbrick of the 17th/21st Lancers (Challenger troop CO) - it's a fascinating read for anyone interested in British military history.

 

Desert Storm Part One: Training

https://britisharmy.wordpress.com/2015/09/15/desert-storm-part-one-training/

 

I understand your feeling sorry for the Iraqi soldiers, particularly their conscripts.  I remember the media of the time going on about Saddam's pronouncement of 'The Mother of All Battles' and endlessly comparing force numbers on both sides, and endless comparisons of Saddam Hussein with Hitler.  But I remember thinking Saddam was more like Mussolini than Hitler, and that the Desert Storm campaign would probably be like Operation Compass on a much larger scale (except with the additional benefits of total naval supremacy, and air superiority.)



SMERSH_T #17 Posted 15 January 2019 - 05:04 AM

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View PostCookiebile, on 14 January 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

120 mm is a standard caliber. So there is no limtitions per se to use different ammunition. And M829 comes in diffrent versions. M829E4 is the one, just checked.

 

Sure I know, but the have essentially the same L44 smoothbore gun, so why the need for DU, when Tungsten carbide gets the job done.

Edited by SMERSH_T, 15 January 2019 - 05:04 AM.

 


Cookiebile #18 Posted 15 January 2019 - 06:36 AM

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Exact reasons and test results is ofc not public, but I guess extensive testing  and evaluation results in some advantages especially when fighting hardest possible opposition (that is lastest Russian tanks with latest armour upgrades),

Here are some leads, all stolen:

 

Frederick Coghe,  Military Professor, Phd, MSc, Major at Department of Weapon Systems and Ballistics, Royal Military Academy,...

 

 There are different reasons why DU is a better APFSDS penetrator material than tungsten.

Firstly, depleted uranium is pyrophoric, and tungsten not. This means DU will have some incendiary effect, which tungsten does not have. This increases the so-called ‘behind armour damage’ or BAD.

Secondly, as already mentioned in another answer, DU has a so-called ‘self-sharpening’ property. This means that a penetrating long rod will retain its initial conical ogive-shape better and longer during penetration. Although the effect of the sharpness of the tip in itself increases the penetration performance only slightly, it does lead to higher penetration performance due to the fact that no energy is wasted laterally compared to a similar-sized tungsten penetrator (if you have a DU rod and a tungsten rod projectile and you shoot at an armour pack, the tungsten rod will normally create the hole with the largest diameter due to the mushrooming of the tungsten penetrator).

Thirdly, in order to reach sufficient ductility in the penetrator not to break up on initial impact, both DU and tungsten have to be alloyed. Whereas DU only needs up to 1 wt% of alloying elements (all with a lower density than DU), tungsten needs up to 10 wt% of alloying elements (this is also why contrary to DU projectiles, we normally do not speak of tungsten projectiles, but of WHA projectiles, meaning tungsten heavy alloys, to clearly distinguish these materials from pure W). Due to this, even if pure tungsten is denser than pure DU, the final tungsten alloys used in penetrators are less dense than their DU counterparts. This has a double advantage in that for a given rod dimension the DU rod penetrates more (see the hydrodynamic penetration equation for an explanation of the effect), but also retains it velocity better at greater distances.

Now, regarding cost, as DU is still considered more critical than W (although both are as toxic!!!), price for production is similar for both types of projectiles, even if DU is actually a scrap material.

Due to all the aforementioned reasons, DU penetrators have a clear tactical advantage over tungsten penetrators.

 

and


Edited by Cookiebile, 15 January 2019 - 06:41 AM.


 


Titus_Scato #19 Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:47 PM

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I thought DU was cheaper than tungsten, or maybe that was only the case for certain countries who didn’t have domestic nuclear facilities?

Cookiebile #20 Posted 15 January 2019 - 02:15 PM

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View PostTitus_Scato, on 15 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

I thought DU was cheaper than tungsten, or maybe that was only the case for certain countries who didn’t have domestic nuclear facilities?

 

I have no clue really, I saw some information/assessment of one US order, but price is the result of many variables were size of order is a crucial part of production cost.



 





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