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My problem with the ATGM tanks

sheridan ATGM T92E1

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Mjr_Eazy #261 Posted 01 May 2020 - 08:07 AM

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@Tijger & @Jukkis out of likes but +1...

That was my line of reasoning, ie has there been a change and if there has is it a negative one?

The reality is for the tier x tournaments there’s probably no empirical way to prove if it’s negatively changed the meta in them completely as claimed and it boils down to opinions...

Therefore I think it will be like the Deathstar nerfs, WG listened to the opinions and decided they were right and it was stymying the gameplay and got the nerf bat to work...

so it will be interesting to see what they conclude, as they said they’ll survey the top players at the end of the spring season and are monitoring the impact of the missile tanks...


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Winters_2014 #262 Posted 01 May 2020 - 08:36 AM

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View PostTijgerhaai_XIV, on 01 May 2020 - 05:54 AM, said:

It is completely on topic to mention how poor your argumentation is.

 

Doesn't justify what you said (how you said it).

 

If I have missed Toast, or anyone else,  answering my point, would you be so kind to point out where? I genuinely have only seen an invitation to talk on Discord or talk about individual situations.

 

Maybe first link which post you wanted to be answered, since we might be talking about a different one here..

 

Each argument that you make has a juxtaposition, where the subjective part is reversed, such as, before hd tanks could control the whole map. Now they have to be more cautious and can be forced out. This has led to more choice (HD tanks now can't take ridges anymore when rockets are being fired well so i guess variation and choice ramained the same all things considered) and variety and more choice of tank set up (In which context?). This is a good thing.

 

If that's how you read the argument, then you are entirely missing the point. That's an example of a meta change which indicates that it does affect gameplay. But the entirity of the argument is based around missiles being an unfair mechanic etc etc that do much more than just chase away that one HD tank from that one position (or any other "juxtaposition" in this argument). You are in the wrong place if you are looking for a 30+ page paper on the impact of ATGMs in randoms and CW. The latter is even harder to explain since the majority of people on the forums doesn't play CW and doesn't know the basics of CW.

 

What your argument lacks is a way of distinguishing itself from this counter argument, as it relies entirely on your subjective opinion (just wow, this btw already showed you haven't read my posts ;) ) and the logical falicy of an appeal to authority.

 

I have not seen one counter argument that wasn't about stats or an increase in variety. I've asked multiple times why the ATGMs should remain in the game and all i saw was "they are a new mechanic" "unicums just don't wanna change their playstyle" "they don't have an impact on the meta like you say, and the small changes add to the variety" and some more rather weak arguments. I've seen no good argument breaking our "rockets are unfair (reread posts if you want the proper explanation)" argument either. Yes they add variety, but not in a good way and thus belong in a gamemode for fun, not in normal games and CW. 

 

And it also relies on the stupidity of average players preventing then from seeing what clan members do. Because even if you do not insult them, you have backed up and condoned Toast's comments, and just called average players, below average. 

 

"If it actually had an impact you would see it in the stats or you would see difference in player behaviour" I've seen something along the lines of that a few times and the avg player argument is there to say that a lot of players don't know how to use their tank to fullest, can't read the map properly, don't perfectly know how to counter each tank (or knowing how, but being unable to do so ingame) etc. You can't deny that since they wouldn't be around (or below) 50% if they did it better. Note that i'm not talking about 55+% players. Every player has room for improvement anyway. This means that many people won't always use rocket tanks like they should be used and people won't counter good rocket players properly as well. If this is read as insulting the avg player, than i honestly don't know what to say. I do agree that using "avg player might" be wrong, but with every term we use, you'll be able to use the "your just a unicum cementing your elitist status" argument.

So in short, that is an argument to counter a counterargument. Our main argument still stands.

 

View PostJukkis74, on 01 May 2020 - 07:54 AM, said:

Let me try (follow-on on above post):

- missiles make heavy tanks less able to block critical positions  +"less able to take criitcal positions"

- meds are relatively more effective against missile tanks than heavies (high speed, high dpm is good to kill lights) Depends

- therefore meta should shift (for competitive playing) slighly away from heavies more towards meds No, that's not that simple.

 

My impression is that competitive gameplay has strongly emphasized heavies (which got further boost in recent updates). For balance and variety, logical conclusion seems to be that missiles create a positive change in meta. (Whether people like or dislike changes is another matter.)

 

A negative change in meta, read my discussion with gallabru for argumentation. It is an opinion (as everything is in this discussion), but it is shared by the majority of the CW players so i'm guessing that proves the point enough. If the community that actually plays CW dislikes the changes.

 


Edited by Winters_2014, 01 May 2020 - 08:44 AM.

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jylpah #263 Posted 01 May 2020 - 08:54 AM

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Oh, we are still discussing whether one likes oranges or apples and which one is right. I don’t think the opinions gonna converge here ever since this is just an argument over opinions with egos involved. There is no right or wrong here. And Tijgerhaai, I don’t think your opponents actually even understand what level of argumentation you are after here. Some folks take this as a random internet spat when you are expecting a debate based on rules of rational argument. Not gonna happen. Winters above seems not to realize his own argument is just another qualitative argument against other qualitative arguments. And there is nothing wrong with qualitative arguments, since in the end, this is just all about opinions. And he hasn’t finished his studies yet so he has hope still. 
 

I prefer BurgerKing over McDonalds and I want WG to keep the ATGMs in the game, but 1) change the mechanics so that those cannot be used as arty and 2) perma-ban players using mods, especially aim-mods.

 

Love :girl:


Edited by jylpah, 01 May 2020 - 08:55 AM.

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Winters_2014 #264 Posted 01 May 2020 - 09:59 AM

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View Postjylpah, on 01 May 2020 - 08:54 AM, said:

Oh, we are still discussing whether one likes oranges or apples and which one is right. I don’t think the opinions gonna converge here ever since this is just an argument over opinions with egos involved. There is no right or wrong here. And Tijgerhaai, I don’t think your opponents actually even understand what level of argumentation you are after here. Some folks take this as a random internet spat when you are expecting a debate based on rules of rational argument. Not gonna happen. Winters above seems not to realize his own argument is just another qualitative argument against other qualitative arguments. And there is nothing wrong with qualitative arguments, since in the end, this is just all about opinions. And he hasn’t finished his studies yet so he has hope still. sigh... 

I do understand what he means. I do realise this is a "qualitive argument vs quality argument" discussion and as i have said before, it's opinion based anyway so no empiric evidence can be brought to the table. I just don't want us countering an argument using an "avg player" view as a reason to call us elitists who know everything better, which is not the case. A discussion/debate is based around arguments and countering opposing arguments and in the end there is no "winner" or "right or wrong" here.

 

And ew fastfood chains, i'll go to my "frietkot" any day :P


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Mjr_Eazy #265 Posted 01 May 2020 - 12:40 PM

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Five guys for me :)

I think we have reached some level of agreement...

This debate about the impact on the CW meta is based on opinions...

As that is the case, the only opinion that actually matters is WG’s so we all have to wait to see what they think, based on their analysis and the survey they said they’d do...

The reality is there is no way they will remove the missiles at this stage, they have said that on Discord and will assess it at the end of the Spring Season so not long to go and those complaining may get their way as they did with the Deathstar...


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Tijgerhaai_XIV #266 Posted 01 May 2020 - 05:35 PM

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I'm kinda out of energy for this.

Of course opinions are important, even more so if they are majority opinions or unanimous.

But they are still subjective, and I like to get my hands dirty with facts and their interpretation. So my point still is that in the case of the 183 or T49A one could make a case for how they were affecting the meta, and conjure up a way of testing that hypothesis against the facts.

Apparently, this is not the case here. Here we have anecdotal evidence that shows why we want the missiles gone, but says nothing about their effect on the game. And without that broad view, it is impossible to judge impartially if the effect is positive, negative or negligible.

And about the average players, of course there is a massive Gap between average and 70% at tier X. But that gap does not come because the average player is a drooling moron unaware of the basics of the game. 48% players have mastery games, can carry, can do brilliant things, what they lack imho, largely comes down to consistency and decision making. When things go my way, I can be great, where I struggle is making the decisions so that it more often goes my way.

I remain vastly interested in why missile tanks are claimed to be OP in high level rating when they are not in randoms, and in other nuanced arguments here, but I don't think the itch it creates will be satisfied soon.

 

Ps wat in hemelsnaam is een frietkot?


Edited by Tijgerhaai_XIV, 01 May 2020 - 05:36 PM.

 


jylpah #267 Posted 01 May 2020 - 08:50 PM

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View PostWinters_2014, on 01 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

And ew fastfood chains, i'll go to my "frietkot" any day :P

 

I had to Google that.

 

I take proper street food kiosk any day over the big burger chains. One of my favorites "Jaskan Grilli" in Helsinki that does not save in the amount of garlic they put to their meat pasties. It is a next a popular nightclub and I can never forget the time when the doorman casually said to us "Don't they have superb meat pasties there" when we entered the club after just eating at the grill. The doorman could smell the garlic in our mouths meters away. Our self-confidence took bit a hit for that night. :D


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