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My problem with the ATGM tanks

sheridan ATGM T92E1

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Ardvard #21 Posted 16 April 2020 - 01:20 PM

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Yeah id be happy with the tanks staying, with perhaps some nerfs as others have suggested. Maybe make the sheridan able to be HE'd ^^


jylpah #22 Posted 16 April 2020 - 01:40 PM

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View Postbacardi_b, on 15 April 2020 - 11:51 PM, said:

yep spot on. when the game for 5 years was balanced around conventional ammo, releasing atgms doesnt work. the tanks arent balanced for a completely different mechanic

 

[edited]

 

What do you mean the game was "balanced" for 5 years ago? With IS-spam everywhere? Totally OP IS-7, IS-3D in platoons in reds? Mismatch of vehicle tiers? The time before tier-based balancing was just ridiculously imbalanced that today's players have no freaking understanding of how broken-beyond-limits the MM has been and whine now about little things. I am really sorry, but you don't get my sympathy.

 

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Edited by jylpah, 16 April 2020 - 02:58 PM.

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Fugit555 #23 Posted 16 April 2020 - 02:06 PM

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View PostWinters_2014, on 16 April 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:

 

I invite you to go to the tank compare on https://www.blitzstars.com/ and see for yourself that even medium tanks have worse avgs than the sheridan. There are exceptions in the STB and some others though. I should mention that i'm mostly looking at dmg ratio and avg damage. I'd have put an image of it, but i can't seem to find a way to upload this image in replies..

 

Anyway, i didn't want to compare them at first because they are different tank types and (according to pc and other all the light lines in blitz already) lights are harder to play. Only unicums get to use lights at their full potential. Yet the sheridan has high stats.

Another interesting thing to look at is the amount of battles played. It is really high compared to mediums. I'd normally say that the more people play a tank, the lower its stats will be because it would mean that a lower % of the players playing are actually a unicum.

 

That is not the point of my post, ATGMs are just breaking the game in their own way imo.

 

I know vids on this have been done before, but I felt compelled to do yet another based on this thread


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Ardvard #24 Posted 16 April 2020 - 02:12 PM

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View Postjylpah, on 16 April 2020 - 01:40 PM, said:

 

[edited]

 

What do you mean the game was "balanced" 5 years ago? With IS-spam everywhere? Totally OP IS-7, IS-3D in platoons in reds? Mismatch of vehicle tiers? The time before tier-based balancing was just ridiculously imbalanced that today's players have no freaking understanding of how broken-beyond-limits the MM has been and whine now about little things. I am really sorry, but you don't get my sympathy.

 

You have missed my point quite disastrously. I never said the words '5 years ago'? Also, I obviously mean WG had been balancing the game around conventional ammo, and not atgms...

I am not saying the game was balanced 5 years ago lmao



Winters_2014 #25 Posted 16 April 2020 - 02:32 PM

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View PostFugit555, on 16 April 2020 - 02:06 PM, said:

 

I know vids on this have been done before, but I felt compelled to do yet another based on this thread

 

pretty good video mate ;)


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jylpah #26 Posted 16 April 2020 - 02:49 PM

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View PostEndToast_LOCA, on 16 April 2020 - 12:54 PM, said:

I completely agree
 

ATGMs are indeed game breaking, I would rather have them running around doing 100kmh with their current hitskin and armour than having those stupid rockets

 

Yeah, why involve facts when opinions are cheap and easily available in convenient direction. :girl:

 

I detailed the misconception of ATGM tanks being OP in the another thread, but let's do it here again. This time with ~5x the data BlitzStars has:

 

Average WR in a tank does not directly say a tank is OP/UP since it does not consider are the players playing. You must take the average players' skill level in consideration for each tank.

 

Please have look at the table below.

 

It shows average WR in a tank ("WR.tank" ) for all the tier X lights and meds and average WR of the players of the tanks at Tier X ("WR.tier" ). The WR.tier is counted as the players average WR in all their tier X tanks during update 6.8. The numbers do not consider historical stats, but only battles during Update 6.8 (i.e before the "ATGM Nerf" ). WR.delta column is simply a difference between WR in a tank and players WR at tier X. The larger the WR.delta is, the better players doing in the tank compared to their other tier X tanks (heavies and TDs included). 

 

UPDATE 2020-04-24

 

R code

 

    tank_id                 Tank WR.tank WR.tier WR.delta Players
 1:    3649  Bat.-Châtillon 25 t   49.51   51.36  -1.8488   15893
 2:   19537    Vickers Light 105   63.56   65.24  -1.6863      84
 3:   20257       XM551 Sheridan   52.10   53.78  -1.6714   15223
 4:   14609            Leopard 1   49.79   51.19  -1.3991   15653
 5:    7249               FV4202   50.49   51.31  -0.8236    5886
 6:   14113           M48 Patton   51.10   51.54  -0.4438    5773
 7:    5681                 121B   51.60   51.99  -0.3911    3438
 8:   15905                  M60   50.62   51.01  -0.3905    2865
 9:   16897           Object 140   51.41   51.70  -0.2934   13015
10:   13825                T-62A   51.44   51.58  -0.1423   23377
11:    8513             AMX 30 B   52.63   52.71  -0.0855    5245
12:    4145               WZ-121   54.28   54.06   0.2210    6056
13:    3681                STB-1   54.47   54.21   0.2585    7534
14:   12305         E 50 Ausf. M   53.75   53.33   0.4187   12980
15:     385 Progetto M40 mod. 65   53.13   52.48   0.6524   13693
16:   19969          T-22 medium   55.81   54.02   1.7937    3320

 

The FACT is that Sheridan was the 2nd WORST performing light/medium tank at tier X before the ATGM Nerf. You guys are just dreaming up.

 

This data is based on 182k players and 20.6M battles fought during update 6.8 (much more than what BlitzStars has) so please keep your opinions coming.

 

stats.update.tier_X[, .(Players=uniqueN(account_id), Battles = sum(all.battles))]
   Players  Battles
1:  182019 20637847

 

 

View Postbacardi_b, on 16 April 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

You have missed my point quite disastrously. I never said the words '5 years ago'? Also, I obviously mean WG had been balancing the game around conventional ammo, and not atgms...

I am not saying the game was balanced 5 years ago lmao

 

But you claimed as if the game has been so balanced before, but now ATGMs broke it that is just total rubbish.


Edited by jylpah, 24 April 2020 - 11:58 AM.

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Ardvard #27 Posted 16 April 2020 - 02:52 PM

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View Postjylpah, on 16 April 2020 - 02:50 PM, said:

 

But you claimed as if the game has been so balanced before, but now ATGMs broke it that is just total rubbish.

 

i'm not claiming the game was balanced, i'm claiming that Wg had been trying to balance the game around conventional ammo, and that they were doing that without atgms. ATGMs introduce a new mechanic where previous balancing decisions would not have taken this fact into account. 



jylpah #28 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:01 PM

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View Postbacardi_b, on 16 April 2020 - 04:52 PM, said:

 

i'm not claiming the game was balanced, i'm claiming that Wg had been trying to balance the game around conventional ammo, and that they were doing that without atgms. ATGMs introduce a new mechanic where previous balancing decisions would not have taken this fact into account. 

 

I get that, but why then this "game-breaking-ATGM-mechanic" is not showing up in stats, but the Tier X ATGM tanks is the worst performing tank among the meds/lights? If your claim were even remotely true, it would show up in statistics.


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Ardvard #29 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:07 PM

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View Postjylpah, on 16 April 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

 

I get that, but why then this "game-breaking-ATGM-mechanic" is not showing up in stats, but the Tier X ATGM tanks is the worst performing tank among the meds/lights? If your claim were even remotely true, it would show up in statistics.

 

As other users and myself have already pointed out, the effectiveness of ATGMs is based heavily on your skill in using them. A player who isn't using them well will actually be less effective than using normal ammo. The game breaking aspect comes in when you get good players becoming good with rockets. I believe this is a decent enough explanation as to why these tanks seem not to have great stats server wide. as winters already said, these are light tanks at the end of the day, harder to master, but good players can be effective in them.

 

Take a look at some tournament gameplay (where many of the best players play, and you will see some of these issues with rockets).



Winters_2014 #30 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:13 PM

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View Postjylpah, on 16 April 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

 

I get that, but why then this "game-breaking-ATGM-mechanic" is not showing up in stats, but the Tier X ATGM tanks is the worst performing tank among the meds/lights? If your claim were even remotely true, it would show up in statistics.

 

Euhm hello? Mind doing a tank compare on blitzstars real quick to see that the BC is miles behind the sheridan, same for many meds (which are a different class of tanks anyway?).

 

also enjoy this link with some things ATGMs do, and nothing you can do about it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIR5X6Wpims


Edited by Winters_2014, 16 April 2020 - 03:13 PM.

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jylpah #31 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:14 PM

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View Postbacardi_b, on 16 April 2020 - 05:07 PM, said:

 

As other users and myself have already pointed out, the effectiveness of ATGMs is based heavily on your skill in using them. A player who isn't using them well will actually be less effective than using normal ammo. The game breaking aspect comes in when you get good players becoming good with rockets. I believe this is a decent enough explanation as to why these tanks seem not to have great stats server wide. as winters already said, these are light tanks at the end of the day, harder to master, but good players can be effective in them.

 

Take a look at some tournament gameplay (where many of the best players play, and you will see some of these issues with rockets).

 

Interesting theory, but unfortunately not supported by the facts.

 

The table below provides the same analysis of the players with 60%+ WR at tier X during update 6.8. The results are the same.

 

UPDATE 2020-04-24

Stats of players with Tier X WR > 60%

Spoiler

    tank_id                 Tank WR.tank WR.tier WR.delta Players
 1:    3649  Bat.-Châtillon 25 t   62.64   64.61 -1.96831    2204
 2:   19537    Vickers Light 105   66.52   68.02 -1.50087      66
 3:   14609            Leopard 1   63.66   64.76 -1.09545    2293
 4:   20257       XM551 Sheridan   63.60   64.63 -1.02448    3126
 5:    7249               FV4202   64.09   64.67 -0.58680     885
 6:   15905                  M60   64.60   64.89 -0.29145     369
 7:    5681                 121B   64.67   64.89 -0.22410     539
 8:   14113           M48 Patton   64.53   64.61 -0.07328     853
 9:    8513             AMX 30 B   65.38   64.97  0.41374    1008
10:   16897           Object 140   65.48   64.97  0.51499    1849
11:    4145               WZ-121   65.25   64.70  0.55016    1326
12:   13825                T-62A   65.51   64.82  0.68857    3425
13:     385 Progetto M40 mod. 65   65.60   64.75  0.84710    2146
14:   12305         E 50 Ausf. M   65.83   64.62  1.21418    2399
15:    3681                STB-1   66.12   64.87  1.24898    1780
16:   19969          T-22 medium   66.80   64.88  1.91789     733
 

View PostWinters_2014, on 16 April 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

 

Euhm hello? Mind doing a tank compare on blitzstars real quick to see that the BC is miles behind the sheridan, same for many meds (which are a different class of tanks anyway?).

 

also enjoy this link with some things ATGMs do, and nothing you can do about it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIR5X6Wpims

 

Euhm hello? Mind reading my previous reply with the statistical analysis using very large dataset (~5x to BlitzStars). You are misreading BlitzStars, btw.


Edited by jylpah, 24 April 2020 - 12:02 PM.

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Ardvard #32 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:19 PM

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yet again, not entirely what i'm saying. good players getting good at rockets, I know many players who are good, but yet to get good with rockets. theres a difference, and this will not be picked up in stats.


jylpah #33 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:22 PM

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View Postbacardi_b, on 16 April 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

yet again, not entirely what i'm saying. good players getting good at rockets, I know many players who are good, but yet to get good with rockets. theres a difference, and this will not be picked up in stats.

 

So you are talking about something that you "know", but cannot be recorded in any objective way? Yeah, right...

 

I am changing my view when the objective reality (=data) matches with the hypothesis. So far what you are saying is simply not true.

 


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Ardvard #34 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:39 PM

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Yes, it is just my opinion, but an opinion shared by many, especially when it comes to high level gameplay in tournaments. Rockets when played well are game-breaking nevertheless, and using average stats just won't pick this up. (although looking closely at your +60% data, perhaps this is beginning to show how sheridans start to outperform the batchat for good players? maybe thats me tryna bend your data for my benefit). 

 

I think it is still fair to say that people are bad with rockets to begin with, and it takes time to learn how to use them, thus meaning average stats may not reveal the issue. (i'd also be curious to know where you get those statistics from, apologies if you've already explained elsewhere, i'm not familiar with it)



Winters_2014 #35 Posted 16 April 2020 - 03:40 PM

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View Postjylpah, on 16 April 2020 - 03:15 PM, said:

 

Euhm hello? Mind reading my previous reply with the statistical analysis using very large dataset (~5x to BlitzStars). You are misreading BlitzStars, btw.

Ok, then 1) teach me how to read blitzstarts properly

2) explain your parameters again since i don't understand how your getting an avg WR of players in tier 10 that is different for every tank? Are you only using the average WR of the players owning the tank? This being for WR.tier

3) Mind sharing the dataset for this?

4) WR is a bad parameter to be looking at, more stats need to be taken into account (you mentionned it, yet don't show more stats, might as well do).

 

And to make it clear again, i am not saying that the ATGM tanks are broken because of them outperforming other tanks, i am talking about the game mechanic not being made for blitz (or blitz hasn't been made to have ATGMs in them). Bacardi_b mentionned it as well, blitz has been a game without rockets for years and has been balanced accordingly. You can't prove or reject this by doing statistics on a dataset in R. This is something i wanted to start a discussion about.


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jylpah #36 Posted 16 April 2020 - 04:52 PM

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View PostWinters_2014, on 16 April 2020 - 05:40 PM, said:

Ok, then 1) teach me how to read blitzstarts properly

2) explain your parameters again since i don't understand how your getting an avg WR of players in tier 10 that is different for every tank? Are you only using the average WR of the players owning the tank? This being for WR.tier

3) Mind sharing the dataset for this?

4) WR is a bad parameter to be looking at, more stats need to be taken into account (you mentionned it, yet don't show more stats, might as well do).

 

And to make it clear again, i am not saying that the ATGM tanks are broken because of them outperforming other tanks, i am talking about the game mechanic not being made for blitz (or blitz hasn't been made to have ATGMs in them).

 

Hi,

 

1) I meant that from the BlitzStars relative WR graph you can see that on average Sheridan players are better. There are also several meds with way better average stats as Sheridan

 

2) by calculating myself (well R statistical software) players' average WR at tier X from their individual tier X tanks stats. WR.tier = average tier X WR of the players owning a tank over all of their tier X tanks during update 6.8.

 

3)  I have a dataset that I have collected over time with over 100 million player/tank stat records since  update 5.4. There are at the moment 0.6 million players in the database, and I update the stats during every Blitz update. It is a 20GB+ data as compressed in a (MongoDB) database. I can certainly arrange access to the data if someone is interested to play with it. I have shared it already with e.g. Galabru. But every single update is more than 1GB data (when compressed) so you need to proper tools to manage the data (Python, R, Matlab etc). Excel is not gonna be enough. 

 

View PostWinters_2014, on 16 April 2020 - 05:40 PM, said:

 Bacardi_b mentionned it as well, blitz has been a game without rockets for years and has been balanced accordingly. You can't prove or reject this by doing statistics on a dataset in R. This is something i wanted to start a discussion about.

 

I have never claimed there is not a new mechanic with ATGM. But for it to have impact on game balance _must_ be visible in stats. Otherwise, it is just pure imagination.

 

But let me bit more effort on the numbers. Biases can come from many sources (like Sheridan being  a new tank and many people grinding it from 75% crew thus pushing its stats down).


Edited by jylpah, 16 April 2020 - 04:54 PM.

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Mjr_Eazy #37 Posted 16 April 2020 - 04:54 PM

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WG have not been balancing the game around shell mechanics, they balance it based on WR of 60+ players hence they are nerfing the  tier ix in 6.10...

http://forum.wotblitz.eu/index.php?/topic/46539-upcoming-balance-adjustments/page__st__400

It’s also why they’re not nerfing the Sheridan...

Their method is flawed but it is what they use...


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I_C4NT_W1N_ #38 Posted 16 April 2020 - 04:55 PM

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Wow impressive you really are a hardcore tanker.....

Tijgerhaai_XIV #39 Posted 16 April 2020 - 05:18 PM

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The anti-ATGM arguments in this thread are really confused. You realise that you are nearly all contradicting each other?

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but claims of the tank being OP just aren't backed up by the data.

It may be true that a tiny number of highly skilled players are able to break the game mechanics in the tanks, and that as time progresses and the player base increase ability with missiles that the stats will change but that seems as of yet an opinion as opposed to fact.

I don't like the tanks, don't even have the T49 yet, the stats are the stats, not people's opinions.

 


I_C4NT_W1N_ #40 Posted 16 April 2020 - 05:26 PM

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I don't mind them as long as I have at least one Sheridan on my team then I feel safer lol and as for the missiles I've yet to come across anyone who can steer them from a distance. I use mine for sheer penetration values.





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