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Why I believe that Random battles MM is the best it can be and cannot be made fairer, better ect.


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josh33841 #1 Posted 29 June 2020 - 09:27 PM

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Very simply it is in the name RANDOM battles. While they have equal tiered tanks battle it out it is random.

Are the distribution of same tier tanks the same CHECK

Is wr,avg dmg and any other stat irrelevant when deciding teams CHECK

Well there you have it, it is a a truly random battle. 

If you want a competitive, stat driven, hardcore sweatfest play ranked and stop complaining about mm. And for those of you out there Tinfoil Is for  for cooking not for protecting yourself from WG personal bias against you.



Titus_Scato #2 Posted 29 June 2020 - 09:54 PM

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If it's not the matchmaker that's creating 10 times as many 7/0 - 0/7 steamrolls as there should be, then it must be something else.

 

What's left?  Only the stats of the tanks.

 

IMO, Blitz tanks above Tier 4 have guns that are too good, and as a consequence to that, armour that is too good.  Also, they have engines and tracks that are too good.

 

Noobs want to be able to shoot and penetrate every time, they think bounces are boring.  WG gave them what they wanted.

 

IMO, when the old +2/-2 MM was changed to +1/-1, WG should have gone through all the tanks not just with a 'nerf bat', but with a 'nerf tactical nuke'.  Top guns, top engines, top tracks should have been blasted away from the entire tank park.  

 

Why? Because those top modules were designed to allow the player to kill tanks that were 2 tiers higher.  When +2/-2 MM went, those top modules were no longer needed to kill the best tanks the red team had to offer.

 

(And all the Tier 10's and premiums should have been nerfed hard too.)

 

Tanks die too quickly, the games end too quickly.  The average game length should be 5 minutes, not 3 minutes.  There should be more shooting, less penetrating, and less dying in the first minute.



Replicant_2 #3 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:19 PM

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Titus, am I reading it right? are you suggesting to extend that pig's breakfast that was 5.5 beyond tier IV????

Because this is how it reads to me, take away the top guns, make battles last longer purely because the dpm/hp ratio is so low that it takes 2 minutes to take down a tank in a straight face slapping contest, and so on.

But then I'm a noob, I want to shoot and penetrate and think bouncing is boring (my shots that is, I like red bounces on my unobtanium armour) :)

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jonty_2014 #4 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:32 PM

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View Postjosh33841, on 29 June 2020 - 09:27 PM, said:

Very simply it is in the name RANDOM battles. While they have equal tiered tanks battle it out it is random.

Are the distribution of same tier tanks the same CHECK

Is wr,avg dmg and any other stat irrelevant when deciding teams CHECK

Well there you have it, it is a a truly random battle. 

If you want a competitive, stat driven, hardcore sweatfest play ranked and stop complaining about mm. And for those of you out there Tinfoil Is for  for cooking not for protecting yourself from WG personal bias against you.

 

I agree. 
 

 

But the tinfoil hat, MM is rigged, it’s all a conspiracy, ‘why me’ type will never accept this.

 

For them, WG has it in for them personally and only the evil machinations of rigged MM is preventing them from being purpled-statted, seventy-per cent plus super-unicums. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And not their ability to ‘git gud’.


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Mjr_Eazy #5 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:37 PM

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View Postjosh33841, on 29 June 2020 - 09:27 PM, said:

Very simply it is in the name RANDOM battles. While they have equal tiered tanks battle it out it is random.

Are the distribution of same tier tanks the same CHECK

Is wr,avg dmg and any other stat irrelevant when deciding teams CHECK

Well there you have it, it is a a truly random battle. 

If you want a competitive, stat driven, hardcore sweatfest play ranked and stop complaining about mm. And for those of you out there Tinfoil Is for  for cooking not for protecting yourself from WG personal bias against you.

Totally agree m8, far too many Tin-Foil Hatters(Think Mad Hatter from Alice in Wonderland but madder) here who believe WG are out to get them and rig the game against them...

Personally I'd make it even more random, no restriction on tanks of same class like we have now so sometimes you'd get 7 lights vs 7 heavies, it would be fun!  I like randomness as it creates fun in my book, rules and sameness are anti-fun...

 


547146227.png

 


Titus_Scato #6 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:40 PM

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View PostReplicant_2, on 29 June 2020 - 10:19 PM, said:

Titus, am I reading it right? are you suggesting to extend that pig's breakfast that was 5.5 beyond tier IV????

Because this is how it reads to me, take away the top guns, make battles last longer purely because the dpm/hp ratio is so low that it takes 2 minutes to take down a tank in a straight face slapping contest, and so on.

But then I'm a noob, I want to shoot and penetrate and think bouncing is boring (my shots that is, I like red bounces on my unobtanium armour) :)

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Not correct, no.

I suggested taking away top guns.

I did not suggest nerfing the damage of the remaining guns (as WG did with low tiers in 5.5).

Nor did I suggest buffing the hitpoints of the tanks (like WG did with all low tiers in 5.5, and recently with all heavies).

Battles should take longer because of more bounces and because the tanks have worse acceleration, not for any other reason.



Mjr_Eazy #7 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:44 PM

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View PostTitus_Scato, on 29 June 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

 

Not correct, no.

I suggested taking away top guns.

I did not suggest nerfing the damage of the remaining guns (as WG did with low tiers in 5.5).

Nor did I suggest buffing the hitpoints of the tanks (like WG did with all low tiers in 5.5, and recently with all heavies).

Battles should take longer because of more bounces and because the tanks have worse acceleration, not for any other reason.


It's blitz, personally I hate your suggestion, just making battles longer by nerfing the tanks just sounds like making it more like WoT which I tried and hated, boring as hell...

I'd rather WG just made better training/tutorials stuff and kept the sub 5k and over 5k queues separate, or even better scrapped regular battles and had ratings as the default mode...


547146227.png

 


Player_7328394374 #8 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:53 PM

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^ i like having the choice between regular and rating, its good to have the two imo

 

id just get rid of the sub 5k matchmaking in regular or make the stats completely separate from regular or even a completely separate game mode for newer players



Titus_Scato #9 Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:55 PM

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View PostMjr_Eazy, on 29 June 2020 - 10:44 PM, said:


It's blitz, personally I hate your suggestion, just making battles longer by nerfing the tanks just sounds like making it more like WoT which I tried and hated, boring as hell...

 

 

Blitz was a lot more like WoT PC back in 2014-2015.

Now it's a lot less like WoT PC.

 

For me, that's a change for the worse. 

For you, a change for the better.

 

Let's agree to disagree.



josh33841 #10 Posted 30 June 2020 - 02:07 AM

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Now Titus with respect, it is wot BLITZ the whole point is that you pick up and play and that a match will last roughly 5mins. You also state this game has diverged from wot pc which is true however I believe it is obvious you dont really play wot PC in this era if yoh believe this is a negative . Blitz is less p2w, often is a more low floor high ceiling game and unlike pc hasn't slowly rotted away for the better part of 5 years.

minitelrose #11 Posted 30 June 2020 - 04:39 AM

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View PostTitus_Scato, on 29 June 2020 - 10:54 PM, said:

If it's not the matchmaker that's creating 10 times as many 7/0 - 0/7 steamrolls as there should be, then it must be something else.

 

What's left?  Only the stats of the tanks.

 

[…]

 

Disagree.

 

it’s simply the domino effect.

Once the first noob removed himself in a very fast-and-stupid way, the remaining tank are 6v7. This won’t end well.

this especially won’t end well if no one has the dpm to recover from the loss.
 

Dpm is a weird thing, you could have huge dpm, but If you are positionned in a way that you can’t shoot at enemies every single time you reloaded, you are just wasting it. If you are positionned in a way that you can continuously shoot but yourself exposed to 1 gun or more , then That dpm won’t be useable for long... 

 

so depending on map and tank and skills it will be very difficult to recover from the mistake of your teammates. That’s the core of the business. Removing +-2 made the game much more subject to the domino effect, and that’s exactly what happens in particular in those low tier post 5.5 and I believe the best illustration was the mk1 event. that event was horrible.

 

 


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I want just that, and replay files.

 


minitelrose #12 Posted 30 June 2020 - 05:02 AM

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View Postjosh33841, on 29 June 2020 - 10:27 PM, said:

Very simply it is in the name RANDOM battles. While they have equal tiered tanks battle it out it is random.

Are the distribution of same tier tanks the same CHECK

Is wr,avg dmg and any other stat irrelevant when deciding teams CHECK

Well there you have it, it is a a truly random battle. 

If you want a competitive, stat driven, hardcore sweatfest play ranked and stop complaining about mm. And for those of you out there Tinfoil Is for  for cooking not for protecting yourself from WG personal bias against you.


i agree with you and I would love a truly random MM.

take the next 13 tanks with the same tier and put them in a game.

however the MM is less and less random, update after update.

instead it’s symetrical.

 

and that’s because every day of every year, People have cried and quit because the mm was unfair to them.

proof? Red team had one more upper tier. Red team had an ISU152. Red team had a platoon. Red team had a unicum. Red team had wtf something that my team didn’t have. The fact that the next game the situation was reversed never occurs to those idiots, but most players seem to be idiots crying over unfair matches so let’s see what came over the years :


first of all there fail toons were (almost completely) removed

 

is always the same amount of platoons in each team.
well that part I could at least relate to, or at least most of the times. I think sometimes you should be facing a tooon and not have one.

would teach you to not go alone, but to cling to that buddy next to you and just clinch both half of your buttock together and try to hold firm. 


then failtoon are matched to each other.

WTF! They want to play a lower tier tank in upper tier match ? 
let them face the cliff ffs. Matching them always against a similar failtoon only riggs the game in an official way !

but no, it has to be “ fair”

 

then you will see that tanks of the same tier are in equal quantities on each team.

why they even do that ? On one side a guy is a  75% player in his tier10, the other will be 35%...

it’s only fair in the surface but who cares, noobs feel safer that way.

 

see most battles having the same amount of lights, heavies, tds,,, in both teams.

makes for a stupid gameplay with limited options.

 

But that’s not all, you will also see most peculiar tanks are almost always matched symmetrically like t49 etc.

like there are never any t49 in my games except if there are two of them, one in each team. Sometimes it’s T49 vs lekpz.

and so on. I would even arguably say that I noticed a lot of times russian face russian tanks, German superheavies face german super heavies, showing some preferred match there as well. 


and I’m too lazy to continue but you see my point : to satisfy with the perceived notion of fairness of the uneducated masses, the game is distorting the MM in so many ways to give you not a random match, but a “perfect” or “perfectly boring and symetrical fair” match. Those rules were in part made to satisfy people who didn’t understand the game, and in part to people who struggled and fight for their stats but couldn’t make it. they wanted safe rails on both sides of their path to feel safe against riggedness. Then more saferails, then nearly all of the random was removed. 

 

yet they r still cryin, and still quitting the game en masse. At the same time they made the game experience way more flat and repetitive. all those rules didn’t exist when I started this game, and I can arguably say that it was more fun. 
 

Some games were more brutal, yes. 
 

but a whole lot more fun.


 


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I want just that, and replay files.

 


koekie934 #13 Posted 30 June 2020 - 05:28 AM

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OP, you are right when you say all these stats are not taken into account. But they should. I do not want to play RANDOM battles, I want to play BALANCED battles. And don’t give me that Ranked crap. They mostly deliver the same steamrolling battles. Maybe if the counter wasn’t reset every month it would be better.

josh33841 #14 Posted 30 June 2020 - 05:37 AM

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Koekie I'm sorry but what you said is a contradiction ranked are what a true balanced battle is and as you said its crap. That is what random would be if it wasnt random. Plus ranked gets fun and challenging if you get into plat and above.

Honestly I remember a few years back when you could get 5 tds on a team. IMO that says to me maps need reworks not just a hard unseen cap but oh well.



josh33841 #15 Posted 30 June 2020 - 05:43 AM

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Also just to add you cant have a stat based system effect wr that I'm sorry is retarded. If 2 60% players fought agian and again they would eventually have a 50% winrate like everyone else. Now matter how good you are you will always end up at 50% so the system would flop on its face. For the ranked part Ranked points Have to be reset, if not someone could get on a win streak clim6 to 6k then just peace out forever and get all the prizes it makes no sense. Ranked is about your skill over 30 days not forever and ever

jylpah #16 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:29 AM

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View Postkoekie934, on 30 June 2020 - 07:28 AM, said:

OP, you are right when you say all these stats are not taken into account. But they should. I do not want to play RANDOM battles, I want to play BALANCED battles. And don’t give me that Ranked crap. They mostly deliver the same steamrolling battles. Maybe if the counter wasn’t reset every month it would be better.

 

I think you have to decide what you want first. The ranked MM is as balanced as it can be. If ranked is not balanced for you then you have to play something else then team-based fighting games. Maybe Battle Royale MM (e.g. PUBG or Fortnite) is more your cup of tea?

 

The only way to make the game more "balanced" than Ranked MM will be WG deciding the winner upfront and place players teams to losing & winning side. Then it will be 50% WR for all with predictable and "balanced" win-lose-win-lose-win-lose pattern. I doubt think many people would like it.


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gallabru #17 Posted 30 June 2020 - 08:34 AM

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Totally agree with OP and Mini.
If there are steamroll this is because most players see the game as a series of 1v1 events (how many after/ingame complaints "you were 3v1, come 1v1 me" ?). Once one player dies early it is very difficult to come back. We have all experienced how much coordination from the greens and how little coordination from the reds it takes to make a win from a 3v5 situation. Any early 6v7 is likely to yield a steamroll.
This is the drawback of random games. But no ones want to bother waiting 10mins to make a team like in LoL for instance. So, random remains the best bet imo.

Edited by gallabru, 30 June 2020 - 08:36 AM.

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jylpah #18 Posted 30 June 2020 - 08:36 AM

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View Postjosh33841, on 29 June 2020 - 11:27 PM, said:

Very simply it is in the name RANDOM battles. While they have equal tiered tanks battle it out it is random.

Are the distribution of same tier tanks the same CHECK

Is wr,avg dmg and any other stat irrelevant when deciding teams CHECK

Well there you have it, it is a a truly random battle. 

If you want a competitive, stat driven, hardcore sweatfest play ranked and stop complaining about mm. And for those of you out there Tinfoil Is for  for cooking not for protecting yourself from WG personal bias against you.

 

Hi Josh! First, I applaud you for making the intellectual journey to really think what Random MM is. Not many people have done it. If you search early forum messages in 2015, you will find myself proposing how the MM should take WR into account and then myself reversing my position as I thought it through.

 

http://forum.wotblitz.eu/index.php?/topic/7381-a-glance-at-future-developments/page__st__40__pid__76579#entry76579

Jylpah posted 11 March 2015 - 11:26 AM

 8. MatchMaking should distribute "Noobs" / lower performing players equally on both sides. I would not make 100% skill based matching since it could kill benefits of doing well in the game. Just distribute the "noob-quota" equally on both sides.

 

Random MM guarantees fairness over large number of battles. Yet individual battles can be all but balanced. Ranking MM tries to make every single battle balanced. Yet even that is not good for some. I think the main "problem" is unsolvable since in all essence the players are complaining about losing in a PVP game. The only way to stop them losing is to add bots and then the game is not PVP anymore. 

 

I am with Minitel here that the Random MM is not random enough. I am not big fan of vehicle class matching. I would at least relax the rules and maybe set a maximum limit of 4 TDs per side, but not more. I think the current MM makes the games more monotonous and boring. Whatever  tank you pick, you can be sure you are being mirrored in the red team.

 

I would like WG to try Random MM in scale with an event since I am not sure does their algorithm work at all. I would like to experiment how the games would be if the Ranking MM would work and was a norm.

 

Why? Since I do think the skill-gap within player base is too large. Maybe a well-working Ranking MM could solve the case (or then not).

 

Finally, I am a fan of league based MM. Three leagues for players based on skill, relaxed MM rules and players go up/down leagues based on their last ~500 battles. Random MM within leagues and separate stats for each league. With this, both the current Random MM and Ranked MM would be scrapped for good.


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Jukkis74 #19 Posted 30 June 2020 - 09:20 AM

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I (also) think that there is too much forced symmetry in MM nowadays. I prefer tiers and toons to be symmetrical, but tank classes and even individual tanks are overdone. 

 

Sidenote: I was put in sub-5k matches few times in recent days. The ’teamplay’ was beyond horrible. Educating players (and rewarding learning / performance) is key for good playing experience.



minitelrose #20 Posted 30 June 2020 - 02:19 PM

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The main issue with ranked is that not enough players play it.

They like much better to go to random battles and complain that their team was random because the red team had better player for some reason (they never come complain that they obliterated the red team 7-0 the game before or after).

 

without enough people in ranked, it’s not working. Also something they should fix is the reset. First of all a reset shows that something isn’t sustainable and grows out of balance. Secondly the reset happens so often that I feel I’m always in the assessment battles, which draws purely random people in my games, and I seem to never get out of it. This makes me think that the goal of the ranked battles was to give a false sense of perpetual progression to the players, start low, go up up up up, reset and start low again. It’s not what I enjoy, but if WG made it it’s most certainly because that’s what the masses (=48%) wanted in the bottom of their hearts.

 

so I’m unsatisfied / unsatisfied, and that mostly due to 2 things: me disagreeing with the noobs, but they outnumber me by several orders of magnitude, and the human condition, which is sticking to me wherever I go and whatever I do.

 

so I need to just curb the back, endure, and push harder. If I’m tired i can still run away, which is a privilege. 


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"I want the game to be just how it was launched, no MM limitations for platoons, some unbalanced match once in a while, and friendly fire should come back as well. The only thing they should remove is statistics." -phony1907, 08 July 2016, 05:45pm - 

I want just that, and replay files.

 





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